The Replay | Procurement 4.0: Exploring Procurement’s Future with Spend Matters

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uh just to start things off thank you of course everyone for joining uh my name is nille Gower I’m the director of
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strategic projects and a research analyst at spend matters and really quick if you don’t know us basically we
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are a research firm that specializes in going really deep on Tech especially in procurement and here today with Matthew
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which I’m I’m really excited about this webinar because when I first heard about it I was told that the topic is
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procurement 4.0 and I was thinking okay like what does that mean that could be anything and when when Matthew explained
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it to me for the first time I I was really interested in it because it has a very he has a very unique perspective
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and it’s a really historical perspective in recent history in terms of how procurement has evolved and how Tech has
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evolved with it to sort of address these changing needs so I’m excited for the conversation like I said it’s a really
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cool topic and it’s kind of unique so I’m I’m happy to be here and Matthew if you want to just go ahead and yourself
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and just Dive Right In yeah sure so yeah thanks n it is an interesting topic and
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uh I’ll tell you why in a moment but yeah just a little about me i’ I’ve been around for a very long time there’s lots
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of gray here and and uh I’ve I’ve been working since kind of the 1980s really
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um and a lot of that time has been in procurement either as a practitioner as
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a light to procurement um but the last 20 odd years 25 years almost is has been
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really in the technology space and and I’ve got a background working for some of the big players like sap I was with
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for 10 years Cooper I was with for four or five years um and then some other really cool um other companies like
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Orchestra magnitude software um and really kind of shaping the transition of
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of procurement has been something that I’ve been involved in and um touching
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all of all of my life really since uh since I started so yeah I’m I’m
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interested to to start talking about it and I can jump straight in as well let me let me do that so why procurement 4.0
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let me take you back on a on a journey so procurement 1.0 probably started um good friend of
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mine Edmund would tell me back with the I forget who he says now the the Egyptians um where we where we where we
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were just tracking you know how much you were spending on stuff and who were buying from and things like that things
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didn’t change that much until you know the 1990s honestly um so procurement teams that
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were formed around the 70s 80s 90s um really with a with a focus on uh cost
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cutting so saving money so let’s say that so yeah procurement 1.0 is all
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about save money and the tools that we were using at those times were were really things like I mean I was using
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Telex which is completely unknown um but fax machines um email came in at that
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time and AR Reba was launched in 1996 so a real Revolution was arba but it was
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really formalizing those those processes and and really the the the
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whole thing about procurement 1.0 like I said it was about saving money so take an example of you know a Walmart or a a
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Target or whoever else um and it was all about you know getting as the price down
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as low as you possibly could let’s fast forward a little bit and you know I I was I was doing the
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same I was saving lots of money but if we fast forward say to 2000 year 2000
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2001 2001 we had 911 um a horrible day um at the same time almost we had
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the.com bust um so that was pretty nasty as well not not as nasty but nasty um
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and then we had in 20078 we had another economic crisis and at the same time Lots going
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on around you know the sustainability really of of C of suppliers sorry um and
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making sure that the C the suppliers could Supply our customers with with the goods that they they needed to um so
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suddenly we’re not just thinking about saving money anymore we’re now thinking about risk so let’s call it save the
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company so now we’re saving money and we’re saving the company at the same time time as a procurement team so our
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our workload is just I could say doubled um we’re now having to to really dig in
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and and do this kind of thing and you’re starting to get Solutions coming through that are focusing on those elements so
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the kind of risk elements of it Supply relationship Management Solutions are starting to come in um you know arber is
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is the the big gorilla at that time and and you know it’s it’s owning that space for procure to pay which is really still
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looking at only that transactional level it’s not looking at the whole of procurement
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and you you’ve got companies that are are really focusing in on on making sure
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that there they’re drisking so you know companies like Boeing for example um you know they they’ve got their own heart
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takes at the moment about other stuff but but Boeing at that time were really focusing in on on ensuring that the risk
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was managed and that they were able to control um what was going on Fast
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Forward again and um it’s now 2015 um I’m like 40 or something and I’m
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I’m thinking about what’s going on I’m working for sap and I’m I’m helping companies to to find the best way to
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save money and to um control that risk at the same time and a new thing starts
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to come up and it’s not brand new because we were talking about it before for a long time but but it now hits
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procurement much more closely which is around sustainability it’s around diversity let’s call it save the world
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so we’ve gone from you know save money save the company now we’re saving the world as well so procurement has got a
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big job on its hands right so we’re trying to do all of those three things and we’re starting to get more solutions
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coming through to help us to do that so we’ve we’ve now got this mandate to to
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make sure that the suppliers are not only risk-free but they’re also able to provide you know Carbon data and and all
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that kind of stuff at the same time and we start to get Solutions in that will
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help us to track that kind of thing you know supplier iio is starting to come in tealbook is starting to come in um and
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many others out there and I’m picking on those for no particular reason you know the the the solutions that are coming up
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now like you know ditch carbon for example super cool because they’re they’re tracking the real data that you
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need but these are very siloed Solutions so you you kind of need think about how
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you’re how you’re managing those and you’ve got companies like I don’t know Patagonia for example who focus on this
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really strong Patagonia is the company not the not the country may be the country as well but Patagonia the the
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company is is really really interested in making sure that they’re buying sustainably and that modern slavery is
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taken account of and everything else it’s not just them it’s others um so at that time now 2015 there are 20 procur
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urement systems out there in the wild things that you can buy as a procurement
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executive today we have 400 um procurement solutions that you can buy
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as a procurement executive it’s kind of got complicated there’s lots of stuff out there there’s lots of data out there
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as well so let’s move on now to procurement 4.0 which is where we want
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to be and a couple of companies are getting there um but it’s where we want
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to be and the reason is that now we’re not just saving money we’re not just saving the company we’re not just saving
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the world we’re actually adding value to the company now and it’s adding value to that Top Line but how do we do that
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we’ve got all of this data coming from all of these different systems whether they’re internal systems like sap Oracle
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um info whatever other Erp you have or the procure to pay Solutions the source
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to contract Solutions like you know the Cooper obviously we talk about arba um Z iala Etc um you’ve got all of that
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data so that’s all the transactional data that’s all the master data that you have in addition to that you’re getting
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data from other places coming in as well so you can potentially bring bringing stuff in from Dunham Brad Street Rapid
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ratings um supplyer iio I already spoke about and and these others um that are
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out there and you’re pulling all of that data together and and suddenly you’ve got a huge amount of data so if you can
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manage that data well and you can manage that data properly you can manage with
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your suppliers as partners now in a much much better way and start to add value
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to the Top Line not just the bottom line of the company by bringing Innovation by
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bringing ideas to the table and ensuring that you know you’re you’re moving forward um in in the right
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direction so yeah that that’s kind of how I look at procurement 4.0 from a
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very very high level it’s about managing that data and adding value to the company basically while still doing all
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the other stuff that procurement still has to do and primarily save money right
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what do you think Nik yeah know thank you Matthew that’s a great overview I think definitely what you said there at
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the end is really important to me because it’s not just you know you have all this data right that’s procurement
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for ponal it’s the existence of this data it’s different kind tools too right like you I know you named some but some
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of those tools might use data to help you save money others to you know manage risk AK save the company and then others
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more you know maybe on the environmental front saving the world so having all of that together culminates in this
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procurement 4.0 and you know the point I want to make here is that like you like you said at the end there I just want to
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emphasize it you’re not just using this data you’re using it to do all of those three you know prior faces all at the
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same time so that’s what makes you know all this data so important and I think
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you know just just going forward when we talk about you know what you’re doing with the data and you know what’s going on in the back end we’ll get into that
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in a bit but I think what’s important to note here is that it’s not just cost savings right and and that’s you know
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maybe procurement historically is more known for that and and today still maybe that’s the top priority that’s fine but
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having all this data enables procurement to do even more than just that and I know you might have some thoughts on
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that in terms of you know some examples of how this data can can create other types of value yeah sure I yeah I think
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to me one of the main things around it is you know first of all I’m going to
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say procurement is now actually kind of cool to be in because you’re you’re actually adding adding value and and how
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does it become cool I I’ll get to that but it’s it’s basically what what we’re
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thinking about now is if you look at the traditional procurement Solutions procure Tech Solutions out there they’ve
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all thought about the transactional level it’s all about moving stuff from left to right as quickly as possible and
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moving and saving money money as you go the the way that you can enhance
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procurements footprint and the way that procurement brings value to the company
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is is really by doing the other things that procurement does that nobody else in the company actually knows that
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procurement does half the time so it’s about category strategies is about supplier relationship management and I
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mean real supplier relationship management not not not just a system that kind of stores data um and it’s
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it’s about managing those those Partnerships so it’s doing the other stuff that procurement does which is the
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foundation for those that transaction um so if if you can start to use data to do
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those things better you’re going to do the transactions much better as well so
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you know an an example could be that you you bring all this data together and and you sit down with your supplier um and
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you know everything that the supplier has been doing with you you know everything that the supplier is doing
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with you so it’s not just historical it’s actually current as well and you can start to put a real quarterly
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Business Review together for more suppliers as well not just that top 3% or 1% even yes probably 1% is more
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accurate um that people actually have the time and energy to manage because now you can pull that data into one
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place and actually manage them better by doing that you can build better relationship ship with your suppliers
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like I say partnership um and if you can do that you can then innovate with your
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suppliers and you’re not trying to just innovate with with the big guys right at that point you’re actually trying to
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innovate with slightly lower down the stack who may actually be more Innovative I’m not going to name names
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but if you’re dealing with the real big blue chips and you’re talking to their account directors you’re probably not
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going to get that much Innovation coming through but but if you’re talking to an upand Comer like focal point or or other
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companies you’re going to get real Innovation coming through um and and that’s how you can really add value
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because then procurement the chief procurement officer and his team can take that forward to sales to marketing
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to whoever and say hey this is happening in the market what do you think about
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that yeah that’s a great example just you know going a lot deeper on supplier management is is an area that I’ve seen
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adds a lot more value and and it’s fairly I shouldn’t say easy but it’s easier than other things when you have
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all the right data and and you have tools that that connects it all and that’s actually probably a good
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transition into you know something that we’re not this this is not you know an AI webinar there are so many of those
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right now but oh God however yeah right it is so you know
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data D though we’re talking about data that we we have to at least mention a little bit what’s what’s going on in the back ends to enable all of this um all
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this change and all these these different processes so I want to differentiate right here there’s
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everyone’s talking about generative AI right now geni and that’s that’s not what we’re here to talk about I’m talking more about the you know
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oldfashioned AI which I say tongue and cheek because it’s really it’s still being used today the AI that you maybe
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don’t even realize it’s there when you’re using it because it’s it’s discriminative AI by Nature so it might
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specialize in extracting data from different sources organizing and classifying it and this is what’s really
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important because we’re talking about you know data data data and if you have data from disperate sources even um in
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some cases this AI can even you know provide recommendations and this is where we bring the we build the bridges
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to like you know saving U saving money saving the company saving the world because there might be opportunities to
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consolidate vendors for example or perhaps on a contract negotiation there might be an opportunity for the
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organization to you know renegotiate a contract to you know secure a more favorable price something like that this
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is where you know the traditional discriminative AI comes in and because we’re talking about data so extensively
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you know you almost have to mention that and you know the only I’ll say about about other like you know generative AI
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is that you know I maybe wouldn’t mention as much in such in this kind of a webinar but the one thing that I will
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you know I will mention is that if you have a lot of text based data like a contract for example if is you know very
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Adept that if say you’re a procurement user you’re not a legal user and you want to really quickly understand you
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know there there’s so much data here I know who the parties are I know you know what kind of contract it is what the
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dates are but I want to know is there a specific clause in here that says that
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you know we we can or cannot do something or if you know if we send a payment you know at a certain date will
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there be a penalty and you wanted to really quickly figure that out that is the one thing where you know non-discriminative AI generative AI can
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help you in terms of you know just asking it like talking to your contract you know you can basically just ask the question and is it is very good at
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summarizing but other than that for the purposes of this conversation I think you know keeping it to you know regular
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AI is good because like I said it’s not just about having data in in One Source
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you can have an Erp you can have you know multiple source to pay tools you can have specialist tools that we that
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we’ve mentioned for you know risk management and you know the AI is really what’s on the back and connecting all
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the data together and making sure that everything is up to dat especially via you know tight Integrations and and
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things like that but that’s just something that I think is worth mentioning because you know there’s so much to talk about data right you have
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to talk about AI you do and yeah and I try not to mention AI because I I just
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assume that everything uses AI to some extent or other now you know all Technologies to the generative AI is so
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in your face and it’s so um current that that every body thinks about it and do
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we have it yes we do um but you know let’s talk about that data layer because I I think you’re right and one of one of
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the great examples for me is you know you’re bringing all of this data together and normalizing that data to
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make sure that you’ve you’re you know building that that almost pyramid of of
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a supplier um that that whole structure of a supplier and understanding
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everything you’re doing with I let’s take IBM as a great example
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um you you have IBM you have i.b. m in your database you have IM IBM GMB in
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Germany and you you don’t know exactly what you’re doing with everybody if it’s all in different systems and it’s all in
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in different silos so if you can use AI let’s say or a system to bring all of
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that together that makes it so much more powerful exactly what I was saying you know about enabling human intelligence
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with artificial intelligence is what we’re talking about basically is enabling that that category manager that
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supplier manager to be able to to talk very easily about what’s going on with
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with the supplier and get into a real quarterly Business Review an Innovative one rather than a reactive one which is
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what they normally are to be honest you know you’re normally looking over your shoulder you use your spend analytics
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and it’s always looking backwards you want to look forwards in a qbr that’s what a qbr should be about it’s kind of
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we did this last time but what are we going to do now and how are we going to do it and what are we how are we who are
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we going to work with on it and why as well so I think that’s that’s how I see
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that whole AI as an enabler for hi human intelligence is really critical for me
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you know we we’re not about people losing their jobs we’re about people having more fun doing their jobs honestly um and that’s why I say
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procurement is cool now procurement is dare I say sexy it’s the place to be um
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because it’s it’s moving stuff forward but what we have to do as procurement people and what the procurement
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practitioners need to do is shout about it and say we need this because then we
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can add value to the company you know sales is really good at doing that manufacturing is really good at doing
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that Finance is really good at doing that procurement has been you know woeful in getting funding generally and
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the companies that do get funding do really really well and just buying what
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everybody else is buying is not necessarily going to solve your problems or or even move you forward
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which is even more fun yeah exactly that that’s right and I like the way you put that too with human
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intelligence because you know it’s not about you know AI Bots taking over whatever it’s about just finding ways to
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to spend your time doing more valuable work that AI cannot do and frankly might not ever be able to do so that’s that’s
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really what we’re talking about here and I think that’s kind of also just a good opportunity to shift the conversation a
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bit because now we’ve established the importance of all this data the fact that it exists and that different systems can help in different ways but
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that kind of you know sets the stage for how the procurement Tech Market has shifted in the last few years kind of
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you know source to pay you know very important and pretty much every large organization and and many midsize and
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even small have different source to pay tools and that’s nor normal but now you
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have these orchestration Solutions like focal point that exist to try to do a better job of sort of connecting
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everything together and acting as the the central Hub that everybody goes to first and I think one reason this is so
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important to mention is that you have with the traditional framework right where you just have maybe you have
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multiple best of breed source of face Solutions or you have a sweet and other best of breeds and of course you still
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have you know erps and whatnot um that just a lot of different data sources right and it’s different user
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experiences there just it’s difficult to get everybody from the even just within procurement all on the same tools there
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so that also leads to lower user adoption return on investment I mean I’m basically just telling you why you know
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there’s a need for something different on the market right and with orchestration now you have what is in
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most cases a much easier to use interface that is often you know a drag and drop no code or low code interface
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that encourages your adoption but most importantly orchestration Solutions have really tight Integrations to all these
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different systems so it can act sort of as the place to go for the entire organization when you want to figure out
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where something is in the workflow or you know the latest update on a task it also ask with the communication tool
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because it generally integrates with you know slack and teams and common channels such as that and that’s you know just
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sort of where where the market is headed right because now you have all this data but it doesn’t really communicate with
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each other and one way to get it to do so is with orchestration because at the end of the day orchestration really is
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just all about centralization in my view and that’s both in terms of the employees themselves you know working
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out of the same tool but also the data because you have like I said it’s not just different source to pay tools but
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it’s also erps and different data feeds like you know for specialized maybe supplier risk management cases and
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that’s where sort of the market is heading in the future and and right now really in the last few years with orchestration just because I think
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people have realized how important this data is and how they’re not getting enough out of it but now you need this
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sort of extra layer to to make sure that everything is is communicating and in some cases really just to regain value
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from software Investments That haven’t worked out for for every company so that’s kind of where I see this sort of
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databased world heading in procurement yeah I I I completely agree with you you know the the source to pay
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the P2P whatever you want to call them um Solutions out there that absolutely still a need for them um you know they
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they’re the foundation for the transactional elements of of procurement for sure um and and you need that you
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need to create your purchase orders although I I would challenge whether we actually need purchase orders anymore
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but okay um we but you need purchase requests you need purchase orders you need that auditable trail of that
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element of it for sure um but having a one-size fits all for
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everybody you know and I’m not going to pick on any particular procure to pay or source to pay solution here it generally
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doesn’t doesn’t work you know everybody has something that they plug in generally there are some exceptions out
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there companies that have gone all in um but but still getting spend under
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management is really really hard and if you get 40% you’re doing well if you if you get 60% you’re a you’re a
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world-class leader um in in and spend under management with those Solutions so
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I particularly was pleased that you didn’t say intake orchestration because often they just get lumped together into
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the same thing I see them as as different elements for sure you know intake is is getting the requirements
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whether it’s to set up a new vendor it’s it’s to purchase something um from the
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end user but then orchestrating that in the correct way is what the orchestration tool will do on the
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transactional side it’ll make sure that the right people are being involved at the right time with the right solution
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and bringing in the right data so you’ve got all of those elements coming together um so I I I still think there’s
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a place for source to pay procure to pay definitely I mean my personal preference
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if I was implementing it again and I have implemented procurement Solutions a number of times I would start with an
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orchestration tool I sell an orchestration tool so yeah I would say that but I would start with a with an
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orchestration tool because then it gives you the foundation to plug everything into it defines the processes for you uh
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for everything that you need to do going forwards um and and from there you can
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build out the rest of your your site that’s only if you’re Greenfield though
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most people are Brownfield at best um and they have a legacy they have you know I I remember a company I used to
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work with that had a thousand Erp Solutions globally we actually brought it down to 65 um solution soltions but
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it’s still 65 Solutions um getting the data out of all of those and layering a
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P2P on top of it is nonon impossible it is impossible um so you need a solution
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that can tie all of that together and bring all of that data together um and that’s that’s where it comes from but
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but then plugging in the other bits as well so you can now be best of greed but
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with a really solid strong process in place as well at the same time um and
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defining by geography by team whatever you can do it all in one place and and
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people can go to one place to look at everything that’s going on and the CPO suddenly and and the VPS of procurement
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and the directors of procurement and the managers of procurement can see who’s working on what at any one time as well
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which is really cool too I’m quite passionate about this for
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sure yeah I know it makes sense and to me it’s like well first of all just to get back to what you said I I I
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completely agree that intake and orchestration are two separate related but separate things where intake is sort
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of the beginning you know like what do you need and how do you want to achieve it and the orchestration is sort of the
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ongoing management of those requests taking in all the data especially from different sources that’s the way that I
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see that so we’re we seem to be aligned there but to me when you tie this back to what you were saying earlier and and
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the whole you know procurement 4.0 idea to me orchestration feels like the natural culmination of the prior stages
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because you’re you know you’re you’re doing all three of saving saving money saving the company save in the world
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you’re doing all those with orchestration but it was also leveraging all the data that you have that we’re
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acknowledging as part of procument 4.0 so to me that kind of makes you know not not to get too ahead of our steps here
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but to me that kind of makes procurement 5.0 or whatever the future is going to be even more difficult to predict
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because you know I don’t think I’m not of the opinion that source to pay is is ever going to die like there will always
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be a need for that transactional sort of software but at the same time maybe part of its processes will become part of
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orchestration and the next phase might be more about or sorry the next phase might be less about the data itself but
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more about what you can do with the data and maybe that’s where AI comes back into the picture mean who am I to say
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what AI can or cannot do in the future right so that’s kind of what I’m about with this topic is you know I I I agree
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with the way you’ve laid out you know procurement you know 1.0 to 4.0 but now I’m just kind of thinking what’s next
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right and how does oration factor into it I actually got asked that question I I did a presentation in London a few few
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weeks ago and uh I actually got asked that question what is 5.0 and I’m like I don’t know I’m I’m probably too old to
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ever see it but um but it’s uh it’s going to be exciting that’s for sure
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it’s it’s you know really using that data in in such an effective and
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efficient and wonderful way um that you know it’s it’s not just
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about automation it’s not just about autonomous at all it’s about how people
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can interact with systems I think that’s the really exciting thing about artificial intelligence it’s not about
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replacing people it’s about how how they can make our lives easier but more fun
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at the same time you know we have to enjoy going to work we do so much of it
29:25
that we should enjoy doing it so that’s for me the part anyway I know we’re near of time so I’m kind
29:32
of winding down yeah I completely agree with you there and yeah in terms of that
29:38
I think we do have some questions in the in the Q&A section I think so do you want to start out with that one the
29:44
first one I mean um sure I’m not sure I can actually see them I can read it if you want oh oh
29:52
there is sorry yeah yeah okay speaking of data what are your views of the role of procurement
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tracking supplies New and emerging risks especially cyber vulnerabilities which can spill into the buying organization
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and with new SEC regulations for reporting this new and emerging
30:12
risk yeah I think this is an extension almost of that that whole uh 2.0 um
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Edward you know if you I I think by we’re going to have
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more and more solutions that are grabbing these vulnerabilities and understanding you know who is vulnerable
30:32
know we whenever whenever we sell our solution and I I know you understand this Ed um we have to go through a
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Security review uh so we have to answer all of these questions but one of the things they do in the background is well
30:46
they they try and you know get into our systems be our website our email or or
30:51
whatever um and I and I think there’s going to be new ways of tracking that
30:58
and new ways of of doing that in advance that that we can then start to pull into
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systems as well I don’t know nil do you have some thoughts on that no I mean I
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like the way you put that and I think there are so many different types of risk right and I’ve I’m more on like the
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orchestration side of things in my research but we have done a decent amount of risk research in the last year or so other analysts on my team and when
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you try to segment you know risk management and you try to do it in a way that is that is fair and holistic right
31:30
that gets to all the different types of risk you end up with like 35 different categories like like it’s really
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difficult but cyber is absolutely one of them and there is you know a growing a
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growing subset of solutions kind of we talked about earlier there are specialist solutions that are focused on
31:47
on data that helps a very specific thing and this is where I think orchestration also comes in because if you use a
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solution that is pretty much 100% dedicated to cyber risk that’s great and you and you’ll want it to be integrated
31:59
and so you know whatever whether it’s a suite or orchestration platform whatever it is you’ll want that to be integrated
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so it’s definitely a segment that’s growing and to you know what was written in the question of course upcoming
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regulations will make that more important but yeah I do think that ultimately it will depend on the organization whether this is something
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that procurement will be in charge of or or other departments but I have seen definitely within the last couple years
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an uptic and solutions that at least attempts to address cyber risk and and again with the regulations I expect that
32:29
to to continue to grow yeah no yeah I completely agree with you I think
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companies have to be ahead of that as well we shouldn’t be waiting for regulation to come in um to to do that
32:41
and and I know the big companies are not doing that um but then you’ve got other stuff coming in as well you know Dora
32:47
for financial um companies and and then I mean GD gdpr is already there but then
32:54
you’ve got hipper and all those kinds of things that you need to track and Trace and and make sure that you’re following as well so by bringing all that data
33:01
into one place you can start to control that much much better and again we get asked whenever we do rfps and rfis we
33:09
get asked about Hippa and we get asked about all sorts of things so if if there’s a a common database of that you
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know there’s a opportunity for somebody out there to build all of this um this
33:21
data and bring it in it’s not just all about carbon data and it’s not all about you know diversity data there’s stuff
33:28
out there as well and I’m sure somebody does it I’m absolutely positive if somebody does it I just don’t know who that
33:34
is for sure yeah and even if not you’re using different tools to address all these different types of risks ideally
33:40
you have it all in one centralized place right so that’s you know I think that’s definitely what we’re aligned on yeah
33:46
yeah absolutely cool I think that’s about
33:53
right I think uh yeah so thank you everybody who’s attended from my point of view I I’ve enjoyed talking about my
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favorite topic which is the future of procurement and uh and how it’s going to be cool or is cool and nice talking to
34:08
you nille thank you for your time absolutely yeah you as well and like I said it’s really nice to get the sort of
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historical perspective because I’ve always appreciated when you know I have an understanding of how things are the
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way they are today based off of what’s happened in the last you know 20 30 years or however long it is so the the
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framework of procurement 4.0 is is really cool and I’m happy that you’ve been able to you know share that at
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different different talks and whatnot this year cool thanks so much and I’ll
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hopefully see you soon yeah thank you and thanks everyone for joining thanks
34:42
byebye